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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Davef1uk on 2019-05-03 00:24:09

Title: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: Davef1uk on 2019-05-03 00:24:09
Anyone other than me get these stupid 4 wheel knobs close the door on you when filtering???


I wish I had a led light which flashed * knob sack *   


Had one today AGAIN move over as I was coming to lights, then thought he was A police interceptor as he spun off at mark 3. Lmao. 


Don’t they realise we are gone before they change into 2nd gear.  Numptys
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: PeteM on 2019-05-03 08:09:27
Anyone other than me get these stupid 4 wheel knobs close the door on you when filtering???


I had a car try to block me once on the M6 when everything was at a virtual standstill due to a crash. The police car he moved closer to to achieve this pointed out to him that what I was doing was perfectly legal but he was causing an obstruction which was not.  :))


And for any American's reading: Filtering = Lane splitting
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: jackronner on 2019-05-03 09:33:37
I've been white-lining it (filtering) in California since '72, and reluctantly have to report that over 70% of drivers who actively and intentionally put me in danger are women.  And I mean really dangerous behavior, carried out repeatedly and often over protracted periods.  I tell them that when they click on their seat-belts, it isn't really a 3500 lb. strap-on to impose their power on a (still) preponderantly male mode of transport.  I do add that they'll try this on the wrong dude one day, and they won't be safe in their cocoon.  Perhaps it's not road rage, but road rag?  Interested to see if this phenomenon holds true in other countries, as well.  Let me know.
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: B787MECH on 2019-05-03 09:52:42
Over the many years I've been riding I've seen every kind of idiot behaviour from car drivers while bikes have been filtering. The common one is drivers closing the gap when they see you coming but I've also seen drivers throw things out the window as you pass, including lighted cigarettes, and opening the door is common too. This unfortunately happened to a colleague which resulted in fatal injuries. It was impossible to prove in court that it was done on purpose. Be careful out there!


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Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: Beagle on 2019-05-03 11:21:45





https://www.bmf.co.uk/news/show/10-tips-for-safe-motorcycle-filtering (https://www.bmf.co.uk/news/show/10-tips-for-safe-motorcycle-filtering)



Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: Brian Mac on 2019-05-03 12:12:18
you could always use one of these to cull the bad drivers every now and then[attach=1]
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: timminator on 2019-05-03 15:54:31
And for any American's reading: Filtering = Lane splitting


Thanks for the man-splaining that one!  Now if I only knew what a "knob sack" was?   :alas:
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: Sprintgull on 2019-05-03 16:47:49
Over the many years I've been riding I've seen every kind of idiot behaviour from car drivers while bikes have been filtering. The common one is drivers closing the gap when they see you coming but I've also seen drivers throw things out the window as you pass, including lighted cigarettes, ….

Sent from my iPad using T apatalk



Pleased to say
I got revenge on one of our fag-throwing friends a few years ago.  The lighted butt landed in my lap as I crept up  between the lanes to a roundabout.  As I stopped to grab it he moved, so I chucked it back from whence it came.  He started doing some strange dance as he receded in my mirror getting honked by the string of cars behind him.[/color][/font][/size]
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: B787MECH on 2019-05-04 07:51:08

Pleased to say
I got revenge on one of our fag-throwing friends a few years ago.  The lighted butt landed in my lap as I crept up  between the lanes to a roundabout.  As I stopped to grab it he moved, so I chucked it back from whence it came.  He started doing some strange dance as he receded in my mirror getting honked by the string of cars behind him.[/color][/font][/size]
Excellent! Serves the bastard right


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Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: Davef1uk on 2019-05-04 09:51:47
Haha.  Love the replies.  The cigarette one is funny, hope it burns deep.   


I actually had one driver shout verbal abuse instructing me to que like everyone else. 


I kindly replied “ why, when I can do this “ ( rode off filtering with a one finger salute )


I have been looking for stickers for my work van, with words “ let the bloody bike pass “ or to some effect lol
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: PeteM on 2019-05-04 10:27:33
I actually had one driver shout verbal abuse instructing me to que like everyone else. 


So he wants you to make the queue worse by adding vehicles to it?
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: Davef1uk on 2019-05-04 17:30:52

So he wants you to make the queue worse by adding vehicles to it?


Yup, knob sack he is. 
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: jackronner on 2019-05-05 05:39:53
During the day, I make it a practice to put my high-beams on, and move from side to side a little to "paint" the area ahead so that drivers are more aware that I'm coming.  I also noted in France an odd behavior, 'til I realized what it was:  as a way of saying "Thanks" to a driver who pulls over to give you room, they'd extend their leg for a moment instead of a wave of appreciation.  To me, it looked at first like they were lifting a leg towards them like an ungrateful twit until I eventually tumbled to their intent;  and also realized that it's much safer than taking your hand off the bars to wave.  Is this common in Britain, too?  I'm trying it out in California and I just hope that they don't think I'm "taking the (or 'a') piss"!  I'd suggest that the practice be suggested in driving manuals to foster better relations.  Can't stress how important how responsible (quiet and slow) lane-splitting is, in that it creates some good-will among drivers, and takes the sting out of their natural envy as they sit mired in traffic.  I hate those twits who speed insanely thru stopped traffic at high revs on loud bikes.  They encourage bad behavior by drivers directed towards the rest of us.
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: PeteM on 2019-05-05 08:15:27
.Is this common in Britain, too?


No it isn't. It is all to do with the side of the road you drive on. In France a driver you have just overtaken is most likely on your right so you ideally want to thank them with something on the right so it is easier to see. If you did it with the hand it would mean releasing the throttle which would disrupt progress. In the UK the car is likely on the left so it is easy to wave or give a thumbs up with the clutch hand.


Situation is reversed for saying hello to a follow biker coming the other way, in France they use their hand but in the UK it is a nod of the head.
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: gogs01 on 2019-05-05 11:59:00
.....   
Can't stress how important how responsible (quiet and slow) lane-splitting is, in that it creates some good-will among drivers, and takes the sting out of their natural envy as they sit mired in traffic.  I hate those twits who speed insanely thru stopped traffic at high revs on loud bikes.  They encourage bad behavior by drivers directed towards the rest of us.


This is my take on filtering too - I try not to get annoyed with, or react to, thoughtless or awkward behaviour on the part of drivers, and try to acknowledge the ones who make things easier for me.


Gesticulating, "rev-bombing" or, worse still, knocking mirrors off, only leads to drivers taking out their spite on the next bike rider they come across.  And there's only ever going to be one winner in a clash between a two ton SUV and a motorcycle.
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: MikeS on 2019-05-05 13:44:40

This is my take on filtering too - I try not to get annoyed with, or react to, thoughtless or awkward behaviour on the part of drivers, and try to acknowledge the ones who make things easier for me.
Looking back over the years my experience has been that the majority of drivers move over to let you through once they realise you're there. Can only remember a few occasions when someone has appeared to deliberately obstruct me.
 I agree a quick thank you wave costs nothing and helps foster car drivers attitudes that we appreciate it and it's good thing to let us through.
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: Davef1uk on 2019-06-09 09:50:55
I was filtering through a 20 mile tail back last week up the M5 after a ride to and around south west Cornwall.


I was thinking why filtering...it would be much easier to use the hard shoulder...I can’t see why they don’t let us use it.    I do understand why 4 wheels can’t, but we are talking about a motorbike, nimble and made for avoiding.  😊


It seems safer, easier and if someone has broken down, we can just filter around like we do anyways... or even stop to offer help ( if it’s a busty lovely ) 😊


I am not aware of any motorbike being charged or told not too.    Any thoughts???


Cheers
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: jackronner on 2019-06-09 11:48:56
Dave1Uk, you echo my thoughts exactly as regards that tempting, empty shoulder lane.  There's hardly ever a situation where a bike can't get out of the shoulder lane at need.  Just keep an eye out for emergency lights behind to give you plenty of time to get over.  Much safer for all concerned, except for hard debris that tends to migrate into the lane.
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: Davef1uk on 2019-06-09 12:07:43
Dave1Uk, you echo my thoughts exactly as regards that tempting, empty shoulder lane.  There's hardly ever a situation where a bike can't get out of the shoulder lane at need.  Just keep an eye out for emergency lights behind to give you plenty of time to get over.  Much safer for all concerned, except for hard debris that tends to migrate into the lane.
Totally agree Jack. 


Just a no brainer to me.  Safer all around.   When I was in the States, albeit slower freeway speed, those hard shoulders just seem right to use. 
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: MrCabbage on 2019-06-11 13:25:21
Except that hard shoulders are fast disappearing in the UK!
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: Graham88 on 2019-06-11 14:57:59
Unpopular comment I'm sure but car drivers are entitled to use the whole of the lane they're in or whichever part they like.. they are not obligated to move out of the way for anyone who isn't displaying blue lights. Its nice to come across folk who do move over but when a motorcyclist starts expecting or demanding it, the car driver is no longer the a** hole.

Using the H/S to get through traffic would be a solution up to a point, until you end up with a convoy of bikes zooming down there and then you may as well open it up for all traffic.
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: Sleuth on 2019-06-11 16:56:35

I also noted in France an odd behavior, 'til I realized what it was:  as a way of saying "Thanks" to a driver who pulls over to give you room, they'd extend their leg for a moment instead of a wave of appreciation.


In Belgium, we also use the hand, leg or anything else to say thanks.  It depends on the circumstances.  Vehicle on my left hand side will get a thankful hand wave.  On the right if there is enough time & space, pull the clutch in and say thanks with the hand, or just use the leg.
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: Casbar on 2019-06-11 17:30:36
Unpopular comment I'm sure but car drivers are entitled to use the whole of the lane they're in or whichever part they like.. they are not obligated to move out of the way for anyone who isn't displaying blue lights. Its nice to come across folk who do move over but when a motorcyclist starts expecting or demanding it, the car driver is no longer the a** hole.

Using the H/S to get through traffic would be a solution up to a point, until you end up with a convoy of bikes zooming down there and then you may as well open it up for all traffic.


Filtering is a means to make safe progress in stationary or slow-moving traffic. The manoeuvre is perfectly legal. Highway Code Rule 211). Most motorists are very good and will move over for you, it's the ones that deliberately then move into your path to block that are the idiots and its dangerours. I always say thanks and never try and bully my way through, even when riding marked bikes and not running under blues.
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: Davef1uk on 2019-06-12 01:42:27
Unpopular comment I'm sure but car drivers are entitled to use the whole of the lane they're in or whichever part they like.. they are not obligated to move out of the way for anyone who isn't displaying blue lights. Its nice to come across folk who do move over but when a motorcyclist starts expecting or demanding it, the car driver is no longer the a** hole.

Using the H/S to get through traffic would be a solution up to a point, until you end up with a convoy of bikes zooming down there and then you may as well open it up for all traffic.


As an ex driving instructor, lane discipline is still taught and drivers today forget that part of their lessons.  We drive in the centre of a lane, as positioning to either left or right is also an indication, an indication your wanting to change lanes..  I see drivers hugging lines all the time.. it makes it harder for emergency services to get through by bad lane discipline. 


Same with the gap between you and the driver in front, you should be able to see the rear tyres as a guide.  The reason we taught this was if the vehicle broke down in front , you could maneouver out ok, also, if a person crossing between cars they can do safely. 


Common sense is often fleeting when someone just wants to get home. 


Motorbikes take no room and can clear congestion quickly if allowed.  A convoy of bikes is still safer down the hard shoulder than between cars which position their cars badly ..


I distilled in my pupils, pedestrians, cycles, motorbikes...blind spots...over and over. 


Cars have more protection...we don’t ,,!!   So give us room please...respect the motorbike users..we will forever be grateful. 


😊😂😁.  Thank you.
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: Graham88 on 2019-06-12 09:56:20
Davef1uk - Learners are taught to use the centre of the lane - same for cars and bikes. As skills develop it becomes perfectly acceptable to use the whole of the lane, for avoiding things in the road, getting a better view, making yourself seen and dissuading other road users executing risky manoeuvres that put me or my property at risk... we all practice this on two wheels but are you saying if someone has four wheels they shouldn't?? Cant accept that I'm afraid, car or bike I can and will use whichever part of the road I see fit providing it is lawful and that may mean that those behind me have to wait and not being a hypocrite means that on two wheels if I come up to someone preventing me passing I don't get aggy, I just wait until its safe to pass. As for emergency services, that's not poor lane discipline, its not using mirrors.

I'm not against filtering, I am against bikes filtering when there is not enough room to do it safely, I have had a bike clip my car before and he/she drove off and didn't give a toss so now if I see a bike coming and I don't think they can safely get through, I shut the door and stop them trying. Sorry.
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: Casbar on 2019-06-12 13:27:50
Well having passed my IAM car test a few weeks ago, I don't remember reading in the manual or being advised in the training that I had to also make decisions on whether it was safe for another driver or biker to pass me and if I didn't think it was, I had to block them from doing so.
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: Graham88 on 2019-06-12 14:07:55
You don't have to. However from the IAM bike training, and indeed novice bike training, your choice of position should partly consider what other road users may try to do. There is nothing unlawful about riding a road in position 1 but it can be dangerous.. partly because another road user may mistakenly see an opportunity and try to squeeze pass. In my eyes this is exactly the same thing. I may be over to stop a motorcyclist overtaking, or I may be over to avoid a ladder that some clown has left in the road that the motorcyclist may not be able see and in either case its got bugger all to do with traffic behind me, they just have to wait patiently until it is safe. And when I'm filtering in bike mode, I don't get pissy when someone doesn't move for me, I wait patiently and my time will come.. And if someone does move for me I always say thank you (for doing something they were never obligated to)

Just because car drivers have more protection, I don't want my car getting damaged any more than I want me getting damaged.
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: Casbar on 2019-06-12 15:16:49
You don't have to. However from the IAM bike training, and indeed novice bike training, your choice of position should partly consider what other road users may try to do. There is nothing unlawful about riding a road in position 1 but it can be dangerous.. partly because another road user may mistakenly see an opportunity and try to squeeze pass. In my eyes this is exactly the same thing. I may be over to stop a motorcyclist overtaking, or I may be over to avoid a ladder that some clown has left in the road that the motorcyclist may not be able see and in either case its got bugger all to do with traffic behind me, they just have to wait patiently until it is safe. And when I'm filtering in bike mode, I don't get pissy when someone doesn't move for me, I wait patiently and my time will come.. And if someone does move for me I always say thank you (for doing something they were never obligated to)

Just because car drivers have more protection, I don't want my car getting damaged any more than I want me getting damaged.


I am also IAM and RoSPA on a bike and I personally think the logic above is a little flawed, a bike has a much smaller footprint. You are moving position to protect yourself, in a car, you already have most of your side of the road, in Roadcraft it doesn't advocate moving around your lane so as not to invite a following vehicle to see it as an invitation to pass. Like on a bike you use road position (albeit a lot less) to maximise visibility, not to block following vehicles.
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: Graham88 on 2019-06-12 17:31:50
I don't see the big difference to be honest, you take the smallest cars on our roads vs. the biggest bikes and the whole footprint argument starts to lose potency. Whatever vehicle I happen to be in I select the appropriate position, speed and gear based on all the available information to leave me in the safest possible state (and 'me' includes my property). For me at least this does include blocking vehicles in certain circumstances, otherwise in town I would ride more position 1 than 2, after all being further away from oncoming traffic has to be safer?
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: Davef1uk on 2019-06-12 21:15:43
I don't see the big difference to be honest, you take the smallest cars on our roads vs. the biggest bikes and the whole footprint argument starts to lose potency. Whatever vehicle I happen to be in I select the appropriate position, speed and gear based on all the available information to leave me in the safest possible state (and 'me' includes my property). For me at least this does include blocking vehicles in certain circumstances, otherwise in town I would ride more position 1 than 2, after all being further away from oncoming traffic has to be safer?


The problem we have is most people who have been driving for a long time have no idea how to drive on a motorway and have developed bad habits that border on selfish arrogant stunts.
When I say no idea how to drive on a motorway, I mean, who taught you how to drive correctly and merging safely, lane you should drive in, what each lane means, how to tell which lane your in during fog etc.   I taught Pass Plus and lots of my colleagues thought, and still do think, it should be mandatory.


We should drive in the left lane unless overtaking and return to that lane.  ( Highway Code 5:264 ).  But how many do we see straddling lane 2 and 3.   


Positing should be centre of lane unless your manoeuvring to overtake and therefor your position would change to make the manoeuvre.   


How many put their signals on and leave them on and hope someone lets them out.   If that was a 40 ton lorry, I would be freaking out. 


MSM is commonly known now, but seldom practiced.  Check your mirror, IF it’s safe to pull out or manoeuvre out, then and only then would you signal, then you manoeuvre. 


Obstinate driving leads to road rage.


Cyclist, motorbikes are never seen unless we are 10 feet from you..more and more riders are fitting extra lights, brake lights, wearing hi vis, doing all they can to be seen...


In closing, read this from my colleagues page on teaching lane discipline and positioning. 


https://www.learnerdriving.com/driving-test/marking/positioning.htm (https://www.learnerdriving.com/driving-test/marking/positioning.htm)













Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: Casbar on 2019-06-13 09:09:23
I don't see the big difference to be honest, you take the smallest cars on our roads vs. the biggest bikes and the whole footprint argument starts to lose potency. Whatever vehicle I happen to be in I select the appropriate position, speed and gear based on all the available information to leave me in the safest possible state (and 'me' includes my property). For me at least this does include blocking vehicles in certain circumstances, otherwise in town I would ride more position 1 than 2, after all being further away from oncoming traffic has to be safer?


To be honest, this isn't going anywhere, you think you are correct so that is that :) I just had a look at my latest IAM and Roadcraft books, there is no such thing as position 1 and 2, so not sure how long ago that was taught. Roadcraft in the Positioning chapter, now advocate 3 main positions, nearside, centre and offside. So in slow traffic I normally travel between centre and offside, depending on oncoming traffic, that way I am not hidden and can assess any opportunities to move forward, assuming nobody takes the hump and tries to block me :)
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: michaelc2710 on 2019-06-13 09:27:49
Position 1 & 2 is still used in the Manchester area IAM courses. Courses may use different terminology but you think you are correct so that's that  :)


Next you'll be telling us that the "1 elephant 2 elephant " isn't enough space when following the vehicle in front  ;)
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: Casbar on 2019-06-13 11:40:39
Position 1 & 2 is still used in the Manchester area IAM courses. Courses may use different terminology but you think you are correct so that's that  :)


Next you'll be telling us that the "1 elephant 2 elephant " isn't enough space when following the vehicle in front  ;)


I  only remember  5 positions from years ago, where 3 was central of your lane, but not familiar with 1 and 2, but as I said its not mentioned anymore in the IAM Motorcycle manual or Roadcraft, so I can't comment. Not quite sure what I'm correct about, thought the discussion was around moving around in traffic in a car and moving to block the progress of other road users if you felt it wasn't safe for them to pass. But as I said its not going anywhere and will quickly develop into a slagging match as normal with these threads, so I'm going to but out :)
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: gogs01 on 2019-06-13 13:10:11
Most drivers in UK today would struggle to pass a DVLA driving test and have no Knowledge of IAM, Roadcraft, ROSPA or even empathy or consideration for other road users.


When stuck in a long tail-back, most drivers do not consider the possibility of vehicles appearing alongside them and may decide on a whim to change lanes without checking their mirrors.


My experience while filtering on a bike is that drivers who do see you approaching may move right, move left or stay exactly where they are.  I try not to judge but also try to show appreciation for those drivers who move to make my life easier.


If anyone feels I may be putting myself or their car in danger, indicating or turning a wheel in my direction will usually be sufficient to stop me, without them having to physically block my path, which always feels like an antagonistic move.


Many years ago, I found my path blocked by a car and was then able to move lanes so that I found myself sitting next to the driver's door.  When I looked in, the driver was staring at me, shouting words which I, fortunately, couldn't hear and banging his fist on the steering wheel.  He was absolutely purple with rage and I feared he might have a heart attack.  He hadn't tried to block me for my safety or that of his car, he was just furious that I wasn't queuing when he had to.  I did wonder if he would volunteer to sit out in the cold and rain when HE didn't have to .....
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: Davef1uk on 2019-06-13 18:27:08
It’s about respect, courtesy and understanding what is around you.   Checking mirrors often not only lets you know what’s behind you, but shows you actually care too


Attitudes on roads is dangerous.  We as bikers thank drivers who make it easier for us, riders who don’t and have that attitude, says it all...but majority of us are appreciative and grateful...


But just as a driver would give way to large vehicles, which are difficult to manoeuvre in narrowing roads ...unless we ride a trike, quad or custom cruiser..., we are relatively very small....  my Vulcan 900 was 4ft wide at the bar ends...I could not filter always...


I still think we should be allowed to use the hard shoulder during congestion only. 


 
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: jackronner on 2019-06-13 22:05:39
Here in California, filtering has always been allowed (the only state in the union),and they recently took the surprising step of making it explicitly legal.  Yet even some cops don't know this, and I took to carrying the driver's handbook with me.  Many car drivers are either inexplicably ignorant on filtering, or are just frustrated and envious, not to mention totally lacking in driving skills and road awareness.  They exist (as do pedestrians) in their own bubble of "My Space dot not so calm" and are generally oblivious.  Worse even than the purposely obstructive drivers are the asshole bikers who go screaming between the cars at max volume.  They foster anger and vengeful feellings that are taken out on the next biker.   My impression whilst riding in Europe was they were much more biker friendly -  none of the Hell's Angels image of bikers over there. 


I particularly admired the European model of extending the leg as a thank you.  Very intelligent and safer alternative to the US practice of the off-the-bars hand wave.  I hope that this practice is being taught in motorcycle driving schools.  I am trying to spread it over here, but it does have the possible look of someone lifting a leg like a dog taking a pee on the passed driver! 


I tell young riders:  Don't be A-hole.  Meaning, make yourself visible to anticipated turns across your lane or changing of lanes by moving to either side of the car in front of you so the turning driver doesn't think that there is "A-hole" between cars and ram you.  To this end, while I generally position myself in the lane as far away from potential lane changers, etc. on the motorway, I will periodically move closer to the slower lane and "paint it" with my high beam (during the day - which I always have on while daytime filtering) to hopefully give them an awareness that I'm there.


Something that hasn't been mentioned is the growing prevalence of larger, taller vehicles such as SUV's and pick-ups, and the use of tinted windows.  It effectually blocks everybody's view of traffic ahead and behind.  Used to be you could look thru the windows of the sedan in front to see brake lights, tail-gating, etc. to give you some advance awareness and warning.  Even when they're just parked on a corner, you have to be halfway into the intersection before you can see around them to see if there's a car coming.  I HATE them things!
Title: Re: 4 wheel drivers when filtering.
Post by: Davef1uk on 2019-06-14 00:48:52
Some good points Jack.


I don’t lift my leg lol.  That does seem odd.  But I do either nod my head or lift my hand I a half wave.  Thumb still under grip.