Braking on a Bend

General discussion of the BMW R1200RT/R1250RT
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David.
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Braking on a Bend

Post by David. »

Having read somewhere that, "Telelever front end lets you brake going round corners without the bike standing up," I'm curious to know how.

Found this on MCN Forum, https://forum.motorcyclenews.com/topic/ ... -on-a-bend
Last edited by David. on Fri Mar 11, 2016 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
step2534
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Re: Braking on a Bend

Post by step2534 »

WE all know , the front brake will stand the bike up (law of physics says it will).  Well it will if you put some pressure on might get away with feathering it lightly

Its al down to a bit of planning, Slow in Fast out,  if you cant see round and its tightening up your going too fast, take it off before the bend. But keep it under slight even power not a dead engine or weight is transferred to front making it heavy and difficult to control. (that's why you should be in the correct gear)

Once you've hit the apex power it out and it will sit down and go like a rocket ship.  Front brake especially hard and it will sit up and want to go straight, no matter what you do you wont stop it other than releasing brake.

If you have to take owt off use rear brake feather front if you must but very, very lightly

In the wet be more careful slow in and slight power out keep off that front brake altogether, you can control a rear slide but will be off with a front one.

That's what I reckon anyway
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David.
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Re: Braking on a Bend

Post by David. »

Both i2i Motorcycle Academy (MC3),  http://www.i2imca.com/MachineControl.asp
& Circuit Based Training (Advanced Cornering),  http://www.circuitbasedtraining.co.uk/c ... allory-325
offer courses on Advanced Braking & Braking on Bends.

Has anyone attended either of these courses.
Last edited by David. on Fri Mar 11, 2016 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
guest2360

Re: Braking on a Bend

Post by guest2360 »

For the same reason telelever doesn't dive when you brake, that's why.
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Re: Braking on a Bend

Post by David. »

One of the methods to induce a turn on a Motorcycle is to use Counter Steering.

On i2i MC3, one of the reasons given for a M/C "Standing Up" in a Corner was that whilst using the Front Brake, there can be a tendency to "Push or Pull" (Counter Steer) with the handlebars.

To overcome this, the first technique to learn was to Brake (whilst travelling upright & in a straight line) with your lefthand off the bars.
This shows that Braking in a straight line can be achieved without pushing or pulling the bars, thus inducing a turn.

Once the above technique is mastered, it's introduced to Cornering.
Braking without moving the bars (whilst tipped over),  maintains the lean angle & prevents the Bike "Standing Up".

Please remember, I was shown & trained in how to use this technique, probably not something you should try yourself without coaching.

(The i2i MC3 Course was done on a 2007 RT).

This theory, seems to be confirmed by the MCM Forum & the Circuit Based Training at Mallory.

Image
Last edited by David. on Fri Mar 11, 2016 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
guest2360

Re: Braking on a Bend

Post by guest2360 »

All seems very complicated to me.  I think we all counter steer without thinking about it after a few years in the saddle.  But with a bike with telelever they don't stand up when you brake. Well none of mine ever have.
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Re: Braking on a Bend

Post by David. »

Counter (or Positive) steering, http://www.bam-members.org.uk/Chainlink ... eering.pdf

"Acceleration and braking in a bend
It is a fact that a motorcycle ‘straightens up’ or drifts towards the outside of the bend when you accelerate out of a bend. Why is that? When the forces that work inward and outward on the bike while turning are equal, the bike may continue around the bend endlessly. When you open the throttle the motorcycle will accelerate  and the sideways force that tries to pull the bike out of the bend will increase. It exceeds the inward force and thus the bike straightens up and follows the road out of the bend.

It is also a fact that the bike straightens up and drifts toward the outside of the bend when you apply the front brake in a bend. How can that be explained? In a right-hand bend, leaned over, the centre of the contact patch is to the right of the centre of the tyre – and thus also to the right of the imagined extension of the steering  axle. When braking, the braking forces will ‘attack’ in the centre of the contact patch and thus try to turn the wheel, fork and handlebar towards the right. In fact the braking forces make the bike steer more to the right and the lean angle changes. In a bend this feels like the bike is straightening up."
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Re: Braking on a Bend

Post by Cleverbee »

Hmmm, interesting theory, however dear all, best practice is to ride at a speed that you an stop in the distance to be seen to be clear ahead ON YOUR OWN SIDE OF THE ROAD !
Im not discrediting the theory or the courses available, but if it were a safe, reliable practice, Roadcraft would have incorporated it and it isn't in the Police Advanced Riding Course.......
Planning, gathering information and processing it correctly is what counts. Anticipate that everyone out there is trying to kill you and you won't go far wrong :be happy:
Welcome my Son, welcome to the Machine !
step2534
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Re: Braking on a Bend

Post by step2534 »

Well I agree with you Cleverbee, training would be better focused on planning, reading the corner so there would be no need to brake.

I genuinely cant see the point of a course showing you how to brake on a corner telelever or no telelever my theory is if you've got to brake then you've got it wrong  :alas: :alas:
guest2360

Re: Braking on a Bend

Post by guest2360 »

I agree nobody deliberately goes too fast into a corner believing braking will sort it all out. However if you do a bit of reading on telelever you will see that it separates braking forces from steering forces. BMW only claim this as good as eliminates dive and greatly improves comfort and performance. And it just happens to stop the bike sitting up if you do need to brake. If somebody is training riders to brake while cornering and using the same method for bikes with conventional forks and those with telelever me thinks he needs to do a bit of reading as well.
Last edited by guest2360 on Fri Mar 11, 2016 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Braking on a Bend

Post by David. »

"Post Test Training shows riders how to plan, identify risk, assess it and then minimise it. It shows how to look for opportunities to make progress, how to extend views into hazards, how to make observation links, stay relaxed and totally smooth out riding. Using Roadcraft as a framework, gives a system to ride to whilst retaining some flexibility. Roadcraft is an excellent reference and if it's followed, it assists in avoiding those ‘oh $hit moments’. What it doesn't do is teach what to do if something goes horribly wrong and how to train the mind to do something that goes against a normal reaction. i.e. braking on a bend, i2i gives the confidence on the bike to sort it out."
Last edited by David. on Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Braking on a Bend

Post by T6pilot »

Training is everything, most riders never get any training after they get their license.
The old rule never ride faster than you can stop is often ingnored with fatal results
Everyone will benefit from advanced rider courses that teach both low speed and higher speed handling. If a course is offered in your area, take it, great learning experience and fun
FYI a low speed Corning course can be set up using a few dozen tennis balls cut in half and a level parking lot, It improves your skilset, get 3-4 riders together and enjoy
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Re: Braking on a Bend

Post by David. »

Telelever Suspension will assist if it's necessary to Brake whilst cornering, however, inadvertently pushing or pulling the bars when applying the Brake won't, hence the i2i exercise outlined above.
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